As the recently released film adaptation of Wicked is still going strong at the box office and in the awards conversation, I've got a very timely interview to share as a Christmas gift with everyone.
Carol de Giere is the author of two books that provide behind-the-scenes stories on popular musicals. The first book, Defying Gravity: The Creative Career of Stephen Schwartz, from Godspell to Wicked, takes readers into the world of the award-winning composer-lyricist behind Wicked, Pippin, and other Broadway shows and films. The second book, The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical, records the history and song-by-song details for Godspell and features a Foreword by Stephen Schwartz. Both books serve as historical records in addition to offering insights on the creative process for fans of musicals, working writers, and performers. I had the great pleasure of getting in touch with her about a lot of this and more.
Jeffrey Kare: To start things off, how did you first get started in writing?
Carol de Giere: My experience contrasts with Stephen Schwartz’s. He essentially knew what he wanted to do at age nine when he saw his first Broadway musical, composed by his next-door neighbor. With his born talent as a musician, piano training at Julliard, and then drama training at Carnegie Mellon, he was able to launch his amazing career at age 23 with Godspell. I came to writing much later in my life. A few high school teachers had said I had some talent, but I had no idea what to do with it. When I worked as a librarian for a while, I realized I wanted
to be on the creative side of the publishing world, so I sought out a writing degree program.
JK: You mentioned in the Introduction to Defying Gravity that you discovered StephenSchwartz.com while researching for another project one day and quickly felt inspired to write a whole book about him. What intrigued you to do so?
CD: This was in December 1999, and I was already looking for something different than writing local articles. At the time, the name “Stephen Schwartz” hadn’t meant anything to me, although I liked Godspell and also the lyrics for Disney’s Pocahontas—I just hadn’t yet paid attention to the writing credits. On StephenSchwartz.com I saw the lists of everything Stephen had written and accomplished already in his early fifties, including three Academy Awards as well as several Grammys and other recognitions, I thought here is a rich story. Also, at the time, his website had a discussion forum where he answered questions from fans sharing some of his creative process. It was fascinating. He seemed like the kind of person who not only deserved a book-length biography but who had colorful things to say (then I had a lot of catching up to do for seeing all the shows and movies).
JK: Of all the research you did for the book, were there any interesting facts that surprised
you most?
CD: I was fascinated to learn about his field trips, which combined his love of travel and his interest in gathering details about a setting for a show or movie. For The Prince of Egypt movie, he went to Cairo and then up the Nile River. For Pocahontas, he visited Jamestown and for The Hunchback of Notre Dame, he traveled to Paris. For Working he flew to Chicago and met with Studs Terkel, and for Rags, he visited related museums. He couldn’t travel to Oz for Wicked, but he read the book as well as all the Oz books. So, I included some descriptions and photos in my book.
I also discovered that his approach to writing is all about musical storytelling. I kept asking him about the influences on his songs, such as for the lyrics of a beautiful song “Through Heaven’s Eyes” from The Prince of Egypt. There’s a line about how a single thread in a tapestry is part of a whole, so I asked if he saw tapestries when he went to Egypt. And for Pippin, my favorite song is “Morning Glow,” so I asked if he saw a sunrise that inspired the song.
He answered that his process is the opposite. Yes, he takes in experiences from life and field trips, but when he’s writing songs for musicals, he usually goes into his workspace with pads of paper for lyrics and a piano. Then he thinks about the job at hand – what a particular character experiences at the moment of the song. It’s a process of stepping inside the character and writing from their point of view.
JK: You’ve mentioned how you started interviews for the first book before Wicked was even announced. Do you remember how you found out about the project?
CD: Stephen told me about it in my June 2000 interview. I had an agreement with him that I wouldn’t publish anything that he hadn’t reviewed (since I was writing an authorized career biography), so he was able to tell me things that weren’t yet public. That’s how, over the subsequent three years, I was able to get some of the more challenging inside stories, because he knew the book wouldn’t be published until after the show opened and publicity had been established.
JK: I was already familiar with the story of how for a while, Stephen wasn’t looking to work on Broadway again due to some previous experiences he found rather difficult. Yet while he was on a snorkeling trip with a friend who randomly brought up that she was reading the original Gregory Maguire novel Wicked, that sparked an idea in him of wanting to adapt it into a musical. Reading about all the details of his creative journey up to that point gave me a whole new perspective.
CD: I’m glad to hear it. Yes, he had his ups and downs, and reasons for never doing another Broadway show. I tell the snorkeling trip story in Chapter 16.
JK: When you first saw Wicked, do you remember what your first impressions were?
CD: I can tell you exactly because I interviewed Stephen a few days later and happened to record my comments as I was taping. I told him when I saw it on June 7 th, 2003, “This was the first time in a long time that I came into a show and just lost myself in this world, and I felt that exhilaration of good art. It’s so uplifting. It just freshens life. It’s why we come to the theatre.”
JK: Obviously, no one could’ve predicted how big Wicked was going to become. Stephen previously achieved big success with Godspell when it first premiered in 1971. What was it like for him to do so again many years later?
CD: Stephen was relieved that it succeeded and naturally pleased that it was popular around the world. Although he ultimately writes for an audience of one, meaning he needs to write what he feels and wants to hear for that story, that it ends up being something touching for millions is proof of the power of authenticity and that kind of deep dive that he does.
There had been a kind of a lag for some critics and peers who hadn’t admired either Wicked or some of his earlier work. It took until 2010 before his name appeared in the Theatre Hall of Fame, which is housed at the Gershwin Theatre where Wicked has been running. Now with the success of the Wicked stage musical and movie, he has unquestionably reached a height that few others have achieved.
JK: Of all the songs Stephen wrote for Wicked, were there any in particular that surprised him by how much they took off in popularity?
I’m not sure, but I know it’s quite meaningful for him to hear how a particular song has made a difference, such as how “Defying Gravity” has empowered someone to be braver in moving forward with an important aspect of their life. Or how “For Good” resonated with a person who has lost a loved one or is being sung in connection with a major transition like marriage or graduation.
JK: When book writer Winnie Holzman was interviewed by Julie James for SiriusXM On Broadway last year, she mentioned how they all knew Wicked fans wanted a film adaptation, but none of the creatives were interested for a while. I believe it wasn’t until about nearly a decade into the Broadway run when talks finally began. Is that right?
CD: I was also told they were not in a hurry in any way, partly because the stage show was so successful. Why tamper? For a long time, they stayed busy with the stage production opening in London, Germany, Japan, Australia, and so on, plus all the various tours. For a while, Stephen and Winnie were able to travel the world seeing different versions. Along the way, they would talk about movie ideas. They found a movie director in 2012, but for various reasons, that didn’t work out. Ultimately, it seems like the film direction was meant for Jon M Chu. That choice was finally revealed in February 2021 and he organized to take the audience into Oz in a very special way.
JK: When it was announced that this movie was going to be a two-parter, many were very surprised. Holzman mentioned that there was not only material from the stage version they didn’t wanna cut but also material they wanted to elaborate more on. I’ve read elsewhere that given all the material they ended up with, the creative team realized they had enough to warrant two films.
CD: I’ve learned that for storytellers like Stephen, Winnie, producer Marc Platt, and now director Jon M. Chu, when they sit together in meetings, they have their own thought processes and language. They go back to the storyboards and rethink all the character arcs, the conflicts, and ways to solve the plot problems. It’s part of being creative in the first place that you want to see something in a new way.
Having seen the movie several times now, we know that they wanted to slow down the storytelling while making it more cinematic without cutting any songs. They included more backstory for Elphaba. They expanded the “One Short Day” song and scene to add an explanation about the Grimmerie, (which will apparently pay off in Part II). They took time to explore the transformation in “Defying Gravity.”
Having two parts meant they could also dwell on special moments like the Elphaba/Glinda wordless dance in the Ozdust Ballroom, which might have been rushed had it been one film. All these things add to the depth people are experiencing. Plus, we can now look forward to two original songs in Part II.
JK: Following Defying Gravity, you went on to write The Godspell Experience, which chronicles the history of Stephen’s first musical that was a major success. What was the inspiration behind that?
CD: When I interviewed some of the original Godspell cast members for my first book, I felt at home with them. Godspell has a special place in the hearts of countless performers who have been in the show, so it seemed like there would be an audience.
The musical can be rather magical. I included the word “Experience” in the title because when Godspell is done well, the audience has a shift in their experience toward joy and community – all the things that the show is ultimately about. Stephen Schwartz wrote a Foreword for the book, The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical.
JK: Stephen’s son, Scott Schwartz, happens to be a theatre director. He not only helmed the original productions of Jane Eyre the Musical and Tick, Tick…BOOM!, but also of dad’s shows such as The Hunchback of Notre Dame and The Prince of Egypt as well as a national tour of Godspell. What sparked his interest in wanting to work in the theatre?
You mention Scott’s production of Tick, Tick, BOOM! which I saw, and in the movie form, his dad is in the audience at one of Jonathan Larson’s readings.
Scott was born in 1974 during Stephen’s early career glory days. He grew up hearing his dad plunking on the piano and seeing shows. In my book, I have a photo of young Scott at the first production of Working in Chicago. But he didn’t want to follow a musical path. In high school, he directed his first show, and soon directing stage productions became his calling that made him distinct from his famous father.
JK: Defying Gravity was last updated back in 2018. Any chance there’ll be another revised addition with subsequent updates at some point?
CD: It’s partly up to the publisher Applause Theatre and Cinema Books, but we’ll see. I’m working on another project that I can’t reveal just yet.
JK: For those who’d like to pursue a career in writing, where do you think would be a good place to start?
CD: I suggest starting with Anne Lamott’s book on writing titled Bird by Bird. She gives tips for making it through various stages of drafts. Writing isn’t easy, even though we all do some kind of casual writing in emails. But for those of us trying to write for publication, it helps to learn from someone who has been in the trenches.
If someone is going to make a career in writing, first they need to get a sense of the type of writing they want to do and then find a good degree program related to the type: journalism, creative, creative nonfiction, technical writing, and so on. It helps to have a topic you are passionate about and have some expertise, so sometimes starting there is better than getting the writing training right away. This goes for fiction as well, as fiction always has a context.
For anyone interested in writing musicals, I suggest connecting with a website I started years ago that others are now running: Musicalwriters.com.
But I should also note, that people like me who consider themselves writers are not necessarily making a “career” out of it, as in earning a living. Many writers do it on the side or have a means of support.
JK: Carol, I thank you very much for devoting your time to this interview. It was great getting to talk to you. For those who’d like to keep up with your career, where can people find you on the internet?
CD: Please visit Caroldegiere.com and follow me on Facebook.
Wicked is now in theaters everywhere. For more information regarding Carol's biographies, please visit the following links:
Defying Gravity: The Creative Career of Stephen Schwartz, From Godspell to Wicked
The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical
Carol de Giere is the author of two books that provide behind-the-scenes stories on popular musicals. The first book, Defying Gravity: The Creative Career of Stephen Schwartz, from Godspell to Wicked, takes readers into the world of the award-winning composer-lyricist behind Wicked, Pippin, and other Broadway shows and films. The second book, The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical, records the history and song-by-song details for Godspell and features a Foreword by Stephen Schwartz. Both books serve as historical records in addition to offering insights on the creative process for fans of musicals, working writers, and performers. I had the great pleasure of getting in touch with her about a lot of this and more.
Jeffrey Kare: To start things off, how did you first get started in writing?
Carol de Giere: My experience contrasts with Stephen Schwartz’s. He essentially knew what he wanted to do at age nine when he saw his first Broadway musical, composed by his next-door neighbor. With his born talent as a musician, piano training at Julliard, and then drama training at Carnegie Mellon, he was able to launch his amazing career at age 23 with Godspell. I came to writing much later in my life. A few high school teachers had said I had some talent, but I had no idea what to do with it. When I worked as a librarian for a while, I realized I wanted
to be on the creative side of the publishing world, so I sought out a writing degree program.
JK: You mentioned in the Introduction to Defying Gravity that you discovered StephenSchwartz.com while researching for another project one day and quickly felt inspired to write a whole book about him. What intrigued you to do so?
CD: This was in December 1999, and I was already looking for something different than writing local articles. At the time, the name “Stephen Schwartz” hadn’t meant anything to me, although I liked Godspell and also the lyrics for Disney’s Pocahontas—I just hadn’t yet paid attention to the writing credits. On StephenSchwartz.com I saw the lists of everything Stephen had written and accomplished already in his early fifties, including three Academy Awards as well as several Grammys and other recognitions, I thought here is a rich story. Also, at the time, his website had a discussion forum where he answered questions from fans sharing some of his creative process. It was fascinating. He seemed like the kind of person who not only deserved a book-length biography but who had colorful things to say (then I had a lot of catching up to do for seeing all the shows and movies).
JK: Of all the research you did for the book, were there any interesting facts that surprised
you most?
CD: I was fascinated to learn about his field trips, which combined his love of travel and his interest in gathering details about a setting for a show or movie. For The Prince of Egypt movie, he went to Cairo and then up the Nile River. For Pocahontas, he visited Jamestown and for The Hunchback of Notre Dame, he traveled to Paris. For Working he flew to Chicago and met with Studs Terkel, and for Rags, he visited related museums. He couldn’t travel to Oz for Wicked, but he read the book as well as all the Oz books. So, I included some descriptions and photos in my book.
I also discovered that his approach to writing is all about musical storytelling. I kept asking him about the influences on his songs, such as for the lyrics of a beautiful song “Through Heaven’s Eyes” from The Prince of Egypt. There’s a line about how a single thread in a tapestry is part of a whole, so I asked if he saw tapestries when he went to Egypt. And for Pippin, my favorite song is “Morning Glow,” so I asked if he saw a sunrise that inspired the song.
He answered that his process is the opposite. Yes, he takes in experiences from life and field trips, but when he’s writing songs for musicals, he usually goes into his workspace with pads of paper for lyrics and a piano. Then he thinks about the job at hand – what a particular character experiences at the moment of the song. It’s a process of stepping inside the character and writing from their point of view.
JK: You’ve mentioned how you started interviews for the first book before Wicked was even announced. Do you remember how you found out about the project?
CD: Stephen told me about it in my June 2000 interview. I had an agreement with him that I wouldn’t publish anything that he hadn’t reviewed (since I was writing an authorized career biography), so he was able to tell me things that weren’t yet public. That’s how, over the subsequent three years, I was able to get some of the more challenging inside stories, because he knew the book wouldn’t be published until after the show opened and publicity had been established.
JK: I was already familiar with the story of how for a while, Stephen wasn’t looking to work on Broadway again due to some previous experiences he found rather difficult. Yet while he was on a snorkeling trip with a friend who randomly brought up that she was reading the original Gregory Maguire novel Wicked, that sparked an idea in him of wanting to adapt it into a musical. Reading about all the details of his creative journey up to that point gave me a whole new perspective.
CD: I’m glad to hear it. Yes, he had his ups and downs, and reasons for never doing another Broadway show. I tell the snorkeling trip story in Chapter 16.
JK: When you first saw Wicked, do you remember what your first impressions were?
CD: I can tell you exactly because I interviewed Stephen a few days later and happened to record my comments as I was taping. I told him when I saw it on June 7 th, 2003, “This was the first time in a long time that I came into a show and just lost myself in this world, and I felt that exhilaration of good art. It’s so uplifting. It just freshens life. It’s why we come to the theatre.”
JK: Obviously, no one could’ve predicted how big Wicked was going to become. Stephen previously achieved big success with Godspell when it first premiered in 1971. What was it like for him to do so again many years later?
CD: Stephen was relieved that it succeeded and naturally pleased that it was popular around the world. Although he ultimately writes for an audience of one, meaning he needs to write what he feels and wants to hear for that story, that it ends up being something touching for millions is proof of the power of authenticity and that kind of deep dive that he does.
There had been a kind of a lag for some critics and peers who hadn’t admired either Wicked or some of his earlier work. It took until 2010 before his name appeared in the Theatre Hall of Fame, which is housed at the Gershwin Theatre where Wicked has been running. Now with the success of the Wicked stage musical and movie, he has unquestionably reached a height that few others have achieved.
JK: Of all the songs Stephen wrote for Wicked, were there any in particular that surprised him by how much they took off in popularity?
I’m not sure, but I know it’s quite meaningful for him to hear how a particular song has made a difference, such as how “Defying Gravity” has empowered someone to be braver in moving forward with an important aspect of their life. Or how “For Good” resonated with a person who has lost a loved one or is being sung in connection with a major transition like marriage or graduation.
JK: When book writer Winnie Holzman was interviewed by Julie James for SiriusXM On Broadway last year, she mentioned how they all knew Wicked fans wanted a film adaptation, but none of the creatives were interested for a while. I believe it wasn’t until about nearly a decade into the Broadway run when talks finally began. Is that right?
CD: I was also told they were not in a hurry in any way, partly because the stage show was so successful. Why tamper? For a long time, they stayed busy with the stage production opening in London, Germany, Japan, Australia, and so on, plus all the various tours. For a while, Stephen and Winnie were able to travel the world seeing different versions. Along the way, they would talk about movie ideas. They found a movie director in 2012, but for various reasons, that didn’t work out. Ultimately, it seems like the film direction was meant for Jon M Chu. That choice was finally revealed in February 2021 and he organized to take the audience into Oz in a very special way.
JK: When it was announced that this movie was going to be a two-parter, many were very surprised. Holzman mentioned that there was not only material from the stage version they didn’t wanna cut but also material they wanted to elaborate more on. I’ve read elsewhere that given all the material they ended up with, the creative team realized they had enough to warrant two films.
CD: I’ve learned that for storytellers like Stephen, Winnie, producer Marc Platt, and now director Jon M. Chu, when they sit together in meetings, they have their own thought processes and language. They go back to the storyboards and rethink all the character arcs, the conflicts, and ways to solve the plot problems. It’s part of being creative in the first place that you want to see something in a new way.
Having seen the movie several times now, we know that they wanted to slow down the storytelling while making it more cinematic without cutting any songs. They included more backstory for Elphaba. They expanded the “One Short Day” song and scene to add an explanation about the Grimmerie, (which will apparently pay off in Part II). They took time to explore the transformation in “Defying Gravity.”
Having two parts meant they could also dwell on special moments like the Elphaba/Glinda wordless dance in the Ozdust Ballroom, which might have been rushed had it been one film. All these things add to the depth people are experiencing. Plus, we can now look forward to two original songs in Part II.
JK: Following Defying Gravity, you went on to write The Godspell Experience, which chronicles the history of Stephen’s first musical that was a major success. What was the inspiration behind that?
CD: When I interviewed some of the original Godspell cast members for my first book, I felt at home with them. Godspell has a special place in the hearts of countless performers who have been in the show, so it seemed like there would be an audience.
The musical can be rather magical. I included the word “Experience” in the title because when Godspell is done well, the audience has a shift in their experience toward joy and community – all the things that the show is ultimately about. Stephen Schwartz wrote a Foreword for the book, The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical.
JK: Stephen’s son, Scott Schwartz, happens to be a theatre director. He not only helmed the original productions of Jane Eyre the Musical and Tick, Tick…BOOM!, but also of dad’s shows such as The Hunchback of Notre Dame and The Prince of Egypt as well as a national tour of Godspell. What sparked his interest in wanting to work in the theatre?
You mention Scott’s production of Tick, Tick, BOOM! which I saw, and in the movie form, his dad is in the audience at one of Jonathan Larson’s readings.
Scott was born in 1974 during Stephen’s early career glory days. He grew up hearing his dad plunking on the piano and seeing shows. In my book, I have a photo of young Scott at the first production of Working in Chicago. But he didn’t want to follow a musical path. In high school, he directed his first show, and soon directing stage productions became his calling that made him distinct from his famous father.
JK: Defying Gravity was last updated back in 2018. Any chance there’ll be another revised addition with subsequent updates at some point?
CD: It’s partly up to the publisher Applause Theatre and Cinema Books, but we’ll see. I’m working on another project that I can’t reveal just yet.
JK: For those who’d like to pursue a career in writing, where do you think would be a good place to start?
CD: I suggest starting with Anne Lamott’s book on writing titled Bird by Bird. She gives tips for making it through various stages of drafts. Writing isn’t easy, even though we all do some kind of casual writing in emails. But for those of us trying to write for publication, it helps to learn from someone who has been in the trenches.
If someone is going to make a career in writing, first they need to get a sense of the type of writing they want to do and then find a good degree program related to the type: journalism, creative, creative nonfiction, technical writing, and so on. It helps to have a topic you are passionate about and have some expertise, so sometimes starting there is better than getting the writing training right away. This goes for fiction as well, as fiction always has a context.
For anyone interested in writing musicals, I suggest connecting with a website I started years ago that others are now running: Musicalwriters.com.
But I should also note, that people like me who consider themselves writers are not necessarily making a “career” out of it, as in earning a living. Many writers do it on the side or have a means of support.
JK: Carol, I thank you very much for devoting your time to this interview. It was great getting to talk to you. For those who’d like to keep up with your career, where can people find you on the internet?
CD: Please visit Caroldegiere.com and follow me on Facebook.
Wicked is now in theaters everywhere. For more information regarding Carol's biographies, please visit the following links:
Defying Gravity: The Creative Career of Stephen Schwartz, From Godspell to Wicked
The Godspell Experience: Inside a Transformative Musical